Why food needs a systems approach

What do Yorkshire beaches, Sierra Leone’s new food strategy, and New York City school lunches have in common? For Corinna Hawkes, they all shaped her journey toward understanding how systems shape food. In this episode, we trace her path from a childhood fascination with shifting sands to her current role at the UN’s Food and Agriculture Organization. Along the way, we ask: what does it actually mean to ‘take a systems approach’ to food? What type of leadership skills are needed to fix food systems today? And why do the best solutions sometimes require slowing down, not speeding up?

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Read the report: Transforming food and agriculture through a systems approach (FAO, 2025)

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Guest

• Corinna Hawkes, Director of Agrifood Systems and Food Safety at FAO

Episode hosted, edited and produced by Matthew Kessler. Music by Blue dot sessions.

Transcript

Matthew  0:00  

This is Feed: a food systems podcast presented by Table. I'm Matthew Kessler. Today we're having a conversation with Corinna Hawkes about systems. 

What compelled your own journey into systems thinking? 

Corinna  0:18  

I honestly think it started with my fascination for beaches. When I was a kid, I grew up in Yorkshire in the UK and the north of England, and I always loved beaches. And we used to go every year to the same beach.

And every single year I showed up to that beach, it looked different. It had a different form, and then the sand was piled up against, like the fences that were trying to keep the beach in place. And that fascinated me. I love beaches. 

And then when I went to school, I studied geography, and I learned in geography with field trips at the beach. I learned in geography about longshore drift, about tidal dynamics, about all of these things that were underpinning why beaches changed, and about why as a human, if you just like stick something in a beach to try and control it, you can't, because of all of these systems. So I became really interested in all of these interconnections. 

So I became really interested in all of these interconnections. And what was really interesting to me about it was that you couldn't see those connections. They were like they lay beneath. And I think these instincts that I had this interest in, these hidden connections, were sharpened through education. I did an undergraduate degree in physical geography, and at that time, systems were totally part of the conversation. I mean, I was reading books that were published in the late 60s, early 70s. There was one called Physical geography: a systems approach. I mean, these things are not new. And then when I went on to my PhD, I was studying the link between climate, soil and plants, and I was doing modeling and and also field work. And one of the things that that, again, really fascinated me was that when I was looking at changes in rainfall patterns, that the impact of the rainfall on the plant and on soil wasn't just a direct relationship. It depended on the relationship between the plant and the soil. So it was just really through my education about understanding that if you miss key relationships, you don't know what's going on.

Matthew  2:22  

Today, Corinna Hawkes works in Rome.

Corinna  2:25  

I’m director of the Agri-food Systems and Food Safety Division at the Food and Agricultural Organization of the United Nations.

Matthew  2:30  

She recently led a report called Transforming Food and Agriculture through a Systems Approach. We'll talk about what gap the report is trying to fill. Some specific examples from Sierra Leone and New York City, and what leadership skills are needed in today's climate. But first we continue on Corinna’s systems journey. Her attention turned to food when she started volunteering at the UK based NGO called Sustain: the alliance for better food and farming.

Corinna  3:00  

This is in the late 1990s, so a long time ago now, and they were producing this brilliant series called Food Facts, and they asked me to do a bit of research on this publication called Salad Days, and Food Facts was all about the environmental, economic and health impacts of producing - and this was about lettuce, just about lettuce. And I was gripped, and I realized that food was the great connector, and that was me. I was sold. I mean, food was my career from that point onward.

Matthew  3:31  

Corinna’s career evolved as she began to research food poverty. She's worked at the City University of London, the International Food Policy Research Institute, the World Health Organization, and now the FAO. Throughout, she continues to learn more and more about working in systems.

Corinna  3:48  

I would say it's always a continuous process, and it's really, really important, at least it's been really important for me in my work to focus on what's going on on the ground. And I had this kind of pivotal moment in 2015 when I was visiting South Africa, and I went to an urban township. I was really focused at that time on regulations to restrict intake of what we now call ultra-processed foods, like marketing to kids and banning and so on. And I was walking through this, this part of this township, and there were two women there selling sugary drinks and meat fat for very low prices, for probably, largely men coming back from work. And they're making money out of it. And it was one of those light bulb moments when I realized that if I was just going to be focused on my single goal of getting rid of that food, that type of food that was unhealthy. I could actually be undermining the livelihoods of these women who were just trying to make a buck. And that was a light bulb moment that really changed the course of where I was going in the future. Saying you have to consider all of these different elements. You just have to.

Matthew  4:56  

Corina says one of the most overlooked aspects of. Not taking a systems approach is neglecting the people at the center of this work.

Corinna  5:04  

We know that there's a link between agriculture and health and environment. For example, it's not just connecting the technical issues, it's the people part. And in the report, we identify 10 key relationships that have to be made in food systems if you're going to not have these negative consequences. And one of the most important, if not the most important, is the relationship between people of different perspectives and in different parts of the system. 

So when we're thinking about how we can better fix food, health and environmental problems, we have to think about all of these different elements of the system. And that's why, in the report, we talk about the six elements of a systems approach. You have to know that there is a connection between food, health and the environment. That's the systems knowledge part. But you also have to be open to understanding that that knowledge matters and that you can think beyond your own mandate, and that's what we call systems thinking. We also then have to say you need to bring those people together in ways that helps balance power relations, that helps give people a voice. That's what we call systems governance. And then you plan together, and then you implement actions that try and balance some of these trade offs between these different issues, and consciously craft co benefits, the portfolios of actions, that systems doing. That has to be supported by systems investment. And then, when you make change in a system, you just can't always predict what's going to happen, because the system is inherently complex, so we have to learn by doing, and that's what we call systems learning. And it's when you put all of these six elements into practice, that change can really happen. This is a change agenda. You know? What we're asking to happen is for people to change. A lot of people don't like change. So that's why, in the work that we've done, we've made it clear that this isn't just about seeing the problems of the unintended consequences, about the opportunities and how you actually make change in the first place.
 

Matthew  7:00  

I suppose, with the interconnectedness of food systems, there's always really messy situations that we have to navigate, because people are at the core of this, and nature and resources are holding up these systems at a foundational level, and every decision we make has an impact.

Corinna  7:19

Absolutely, then you have to say, Well, what do I care about? What do we collectively care about? That's why we say in the report that establishing some kind of shared visions is so important. Because if everybody who's doing things in a food system, who's doing often good work, other people might not agree with it, but they view it as good work. If there's no shared visions of where to go to, then it's there's no direction of travel. There's nothing to align towards. So one of the the big shifts in food systems in recent years has been a more common understanding that food systems have multiple purposes, that there's many things that we want them to deliver, and that's been a shift, but we need to be clear about what it is we want them to deliver, and if it's the employment of poor women in poor communities, then we need to think about what that is. But there's always competing priorities, and we need to give policy makers and practitioners better tools to work through those priorities.

Matthew  8:21 

And yes, there is perhaps more of a closer to a common vision. The United Nations Food Systems Summit was working towards that, although there was plenty of kind of background debate and contention around parts of that process. That work continues forward. 
And navigating those competing priorities is difficult, but this is why a systems approach is so important. But what do you say to the critique of that's really important to be inclusive in your decision making, but if we work at that level, it's going to be a slower pace. It's going to be a complicated patchwork. There is an urgency at the moment around climate change, around global hunger. How do you navigate that tension, when I would say that both these arguments I'm personally really compelled by

Corinna  9:09  

I agree that this is a real tension. I used to co-lead a report called the Global Nutrition Report. I remember standing on a stage releasing the results at a conference. It's so easy to stand up on a stage and say things are urgent, it doesn't change anything. Maybe it brings a bit of attention to it, but it really doesn't change anything. So yes, they're urgent. But actually the most urgent thing is to pay attention to the things that need to be done slower. If we had done that all of those years ago and said, “Yes, the issues are urgent, but the way that we will address them will be through a slow way and invested in people who are willing to make connections, invested in the capacity of people whose job it is to make connections.” We might have gotten further faster. So we can say things are urgent, but actually solving problems takes time. So we can say things are urgent, and then we can solve them in a way that doesn't work, or we can take a bit more time to solve them in a way that does. I certainly know which I would go for.

Matthew  10:21 

You have 19 country specific examples in the report, which I can imagine. It was a ton of work to get forward, and it's done in a really accessible way. And each of the examples I really like, because it's a different context, and in some cases, it's a different theory of change. So here, speaking of investment, the Sierra Leone government increased agriculture's share of the national budget from 2% in 2023 to 7% the next year in 2024. How did taking a systems approach unlock that investment?

Corinna  10:55  

Well, I attended the UN Food System Summit, stock take meeting that was held at the end of July of this year 2025 and I had the privilege of moderating a session with the minister of agriculture and food security of Sierra Leone. And he actually illustrated something that he said, something that we write about in the report. So just to set out that there was a Presidential Council on food systems in Sierra Leone, and there was a comprehensive food system strategy called Feed Salone. So these are areas that we would consider part of systems governance. And he made this point on the panel, that because there's a Presidential Council on food systems, which means you're going to show up, if it's a Presidential Council. He regularly sits in a room with the Minister of Environment, so he's coming and saying, “Okay, this is what we want to do to increase productivity. We want to increase domestic rights production.” And he's talking about that in front of the Minister of the Environment, who's then saying, hang on a minute. “Hello, deforestation. Like, can we please, like, talk about these tensions.” Or whatever the issue is, and then that allows them to say, Okay, let's generate some knowledge to better understand this tension, and that we are going to face in our very real context. And it was the presence of this shift from a sectoral agricultural planning to this comprehensive system strategy and a space where you could actually engage with those kinds of trade offs is really increasingly appealing to the investors and donors. I think they're fed up with seeing these isolated solutions that have then these impacts that don't last, or that they have these negative unintended consequences. 

Increasingly, we're going to see that countries who are taking this more integrated approach will leverage greater investment, because as I said, the donors and the investors are thinking much more about systems change. Because they've learned about the risks of what it is to take action in isolation. There's a long way to go, and I'm not saying everybody is enlightened in that way, but this is the direction of travel. I mean, we can say it's hard, we can say it's difficult, it is. But the train is at a station. You know, this is, this is where things are headed, and we either get on board or we stay behind. And at FAO, we're saying we get on board. In fact, we want to play a leadership role in this type of approach.

Matthew  13:12

And then to another country example, in another part of the world, in New York City. I thought you had some interesting findings there. And that's an example that's closer to home, because I was a train ride away from New York City growing up. So can you say what taking a systems approach in New York City looks like?

Corinna  13:30

Sure. I mean, it's one of the fun things about doing the examples in the report was that they were from such different contexts. I mean, really such different contexts. And we're really clear that we're not saying that this is just an approach for International Development. It's an approach for everybody. And in fact,  every country is a developing country in its own way. And that also applies to cities. So even a large city with a GDP, which I believe is about 300 times larger than Sierra Leone as a country, that spends 465 million US dollars a year on food procurement, which is enormous  of amount of money. 

So the approach that that took is to identify an opportunity space of where you could consciously craft co benefits, like if you're already spending, if you're already making investment in the system. How can you invest that money in actually leading to triple outcomes? In this case, it was saying like we're spending 465 million on meals and snacks across public institutions. 290 million meals across schools, hospitals, prisons, senior centers, etc. So how can we spend that money differently? And that's very much systems doing. That they started to rather than just contract based on getting the food and trying to make sure that was nutritious, because it was a set of food standards. How can we actually use that to support environmental and social co-benefits. So they changed the contracts in order to favor minority and women owned businesses. And to favor foods with a low carbon with a reduced carbon emissions. And they had an Office of Food Policy, so they had the systems governance in place, and they also tracked real time food sourcing data, which is an example of systems knowledge, in order to support that. So they focused on a very particular strategic entry point to make change. And that's kind of what you have to do anywhere. If you try and change everything in the agri food system, you're not going to get very far fast, because it's too complex. You have to find a strategic entry point, and food procurement is a classic strategic entry point to deliver co benefits.

Matthew  15:38  

Yeah, I can imagine the thinking about the population density and population size, which are actually quite similar in New York City to Sierra Leone. When you think about the land mass and the resources supporting that to take a consumption oriented lens could make more sense in the New York City context, whereas there's a lot more percentage of the population are farmers in Sierra Leone. The report, I imagine it was, it was quite, quite a long piece of work, getting a lot of different expertise, consulting with a lot of different contexts. There's only so much you can say in the report itself. Is there something you wish more people understood about this line of work that isn't in the report?

Corinna  16:16  

Yes, I mean, as you said, there's a lot that we missed out. We had to stay focused. But at the end, we touched on something that, to me, is particularly important, which are, what the challenges are to actually adopting this approach. And it's something that people who are actually engaged in this type of work really do understand, and that is that taking action in a more systemic way takes a certain set of people skills, a certain type of leadership skills. It's facilitation, it's trust building, it's deep listening, active listening. It's patience, it's humility, it's making an effort to meet people where they are. 

This is quite different from some of the leadership skills which are valued and rewarded by many institutions. So we actually need to accompany the shift to assistance approach by figuring out how organizations and institutions can value, incentivize and reward these people skills. Understanding and learning other people's languages and having the patience and time to do that. I always remember one of my colleagues here in the division here at FAO, saying it involves leaving the posture of an expert, to embrace a position of mediator and facilitator. We need to incentivize that shift and reward those kinds of people skills, because they're really important and necessary in this process. 

I would like to just add here that some of your some listeners may be familiar with the fact that we lost one of the great proponents of systems in food, David Nabarro, just a short time ago, which was devastating to many of us. He was a great proponent of this. And the organization that he set up talked about it a lot, and he was a great master at it himself. And I feel very strongly given his untimely departure from this world, that we should remember this as part of his legacy, and we should question our own leadership skills and ask about our own people skills to try and make sure that we are doing what we can to lead a bit differently.

Matthew  18:42 

Yeah, I think that's such a fantastic, important and lesser spoken about insight and also very respectful to tie that to the memory of David Nabarro. I want to wrap up thinking about what the impact of this report might be. Every organization thinks, “ah, we put something in the world. How do we know it's working, or if it's meeting the needs of people, or if it's having any change?” So from your perspective, what's a sign that a year from now, or five years from now, this report has made a tangible difference.

Corinna  19:17 

Well, I hope that no one in the agri food systems community, from local to global, is asking that question, how do you put a systems approach into practice? That was the gap that this report was designed to fill, because they have a reference that helps them see what it is, but also that no one thinks it's like about some overly abstract, overwhelming, complex thing. It's actually very practical, and there's something that everyone can do in their context. My desire is that the report helps people see the additional practice that they can take and that the impact of the report is that they are putting this additional practice into place that helps them have more impact in their work.

Matthew  20:05  

Looking forward, we've got this report now as a framework, as a guide for people to use on their systems thinking journey, on their food systems journey, what's some of the lowest hanging fruit and on the other side, what are the some of the hardest nuts to crack when it comes to implementing a systems approach to agri food systems?

Corinna  20:27

Well, on the hardest not to crack. I mean, you mentioned about competing visions. It goes even deeper than that. An inherent characteristics of any system is power dynamics, because every system is made up of relationships with people with different levels of agency, voice, resources and so on, and it's addressing these power dynamics, which is incredibly difficult to crack. You know, whether it's corporate power, whether it's profound gender inequalities. And changing a system has to involve some people ceding power to others and rebalancing power dynamics. Who wants that if you've got power, who wants to cede power, and who's going to win, who's going to lose? And often the people that lose from those power imbalances, the people who are less powerful and more vulnerable. And that leads to profound, desperately sad inequalities in our system, which is a scandal of our agri food systems. So that's a real challenge, and it takes a systems approach and the people skills to begin to address that. And it really does require deep listening to understand what some people might just think is evil and somewhere else in the system or really, really bad somewhere else in the system is also motivated by legitimate concerns. So again, it comes back to systems thinking, which is essentially having an open mind to understanding connections and understanding what lies beneath just the way I wanted to understand what lay beneath the formation of the beach. 

The lowest hanging fruit, though, is about knowledge. Because researchers and institutions and academics have such an important role to play here, because they have the tools in all. To understand from a knowledge perspective, these interconnections. So whether it's true cost accounting, group model building, stakeholder mapping, political economy analysis, we need to have researchers and institutions shift from just focusing on tracking and assessing like one single outcome, from generating evidence only on immediate causes and drivers of problems, and drawing only on top down data to a approach, which is really focused on we need to understand the interconnections in the system so we can identify the strategic entry points and the leverage points and systemic vulnerabilities. We can identify that if we take action in one area, it's going to have an implication on another. And we're going to do that by engaging with the people who experience the system. Because you can't ever really know a system unless you engage with the people who have lived experience of that system. So we need to get - what I'd like to see is research, and academics really get engaged, and the research funders really support this agenda. That's the low hanging fruit, because at least it means that we can get the knowledge out there, that policy makers and practitioners can start to use.

Matthew  23:23 

That's a fantastic place to end. Corinna Hawkes, Director of the agri food systems and food safety division at the Food and Agriculture Organization. Thank you so much for speaking with us.

Corinna  23:34  

Thank you very much. It was a real pleasure to be here. 

Matthew   23:40

Thanks for listening. It’s nice to be back after spending a good portion of this year on parental leave. You can check out the FAO report: Transforming food and agriculture through a systems approach, on our show notes and on our website: tabledebates.org/ While you’re there, you can subscribe to our newsletter Fodder.

This episode was edited and produced by Matthew Kessler, with special thanks to Camilo Ardija, Amanda Wood, Jack Thompson,  and Tara Garnett. Music by Blue Dot Sessions. Talk to you soon.